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Selling Books with GLBTQ Characters
Why can't you sell your "gay" book into the mainstream? Here are some thoughts on it.
Why can't you sell your "gay" book into the mainstream? Here are some thoughts on it.
Just because the house is larger does not mean necessarily your book will be a bigger hit.
That's because women read it.
The fact remains that many mainstream readers do not want to read about the romances and sex lives of queer folk. Stories that limit the risk of offending often limit the risk of rejection.
Exactly. I have always had trouble believing the characters involved as real gay men.
Yeah. I know. Totally depends on it's getting picked up at all, by anyone. But, as ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
alg pointed out, if it sits on the fantasy shelf, it'll get more traffic than it would on the LGBT shelf.
I don't anticipate it being a hit, in any case. If it even sells, and sells a couple of copies, it'll be fun.
It's all about Lulu, babe.
alg pointed out, if it sits on the fantasy shelf, it'll get more traffic than it would on the LGBT shelf. I don't anticipate it being a hit, in any case. If it even sells, and sells a couple of copies, it'll be fun.
It's all about Lulu, babe.
That is only if it sits on the Gay spec fic shelf. If it sits on the Gay Fiction shelf it would receive plenty of traffic. And how many fantasy novels do not last in the chain stores? ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
alg is not wrong in pointing out the benefits but nothing is ever a sure thing.
alg is not wrong in pointing out the benefits but nothing is ever a sure thing.Again, this assumes that anyone ever even looks at it, much less picks it up. I'm having fun with just my friends reading it. They like it.
I attended the RT convention in Daytona Beach last month. While there I was tracked down by a staff member of one of the NY publishing houses and questioned about my M/M erotic romances, specifially, A BIT OF ROUGH, a 2005 Passionate Plume Finalist for the RWA erotic chapter. This person loved M/M stories, understood their appeal to staright women and was actively seeking supporting facts and numbers to show her CEO that the next big market was going to be M/M erotic romances and that they should get on it. I call my novels Manlove. It bridges the space between gay fiction (written for men mostly by men) and slash (written mostly by ametuers-some very good, some not so good). Staright women can walk into a store and ask for a 'manlove' romance without feeling as uncomfortable as they might feel asking for gay fiction. It's all about preception and what people are at ease with. I think there will be a market for it in the near future in all genres. At least I hope so, became I LOVE writing it.
Laura Baumbach
http://www.laurabaumbach.com
Laura Baumbach
http://www.laurabaumbach.com
"and most of the people got really annoyed"
Did they? I'm sorry that was your impression, for I thought the audience was on the edge of their seats listening to you folks. I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't annoyed by your answers; I was interested in what you had to say on the topic. And deeply grateful that you'd take the time to talk with us.
"It's entirely possible that someone will figure out how to sell 'Category Romance With Excitingly Downbeat Endings!' as a hot new genre or subgenre, but the hitch is: this trick is REALLY, REALLY HARD."
And there, I think, is the point of agreement between you and the audience members that were pressing you on this topic (which includes me): We all agree that it's really, really hard to establish a new professional subgenre. It must have been hell for the editors who first had to struggle with the problem of how to market paranormal romances. I'd love to know how they managed that trick.
I think that there are enough people looking in the right direction at gay love stories at the moment - the figures for the number of slash and yaoi stories on the Web are quite startling. The trouble is, these readers are mainly looking in the direction of fan fiction. I suspect there's a chicken-and-the-egg problem here - are they looking in the direction of fan fiction because that's what they want or because they can't find professionally published gay love stories? I do know that, over and over and over, I've had the experience of slashers dragging me into bookstores - literally or through cyberspace recommendations - and telling me what their favorite pro books are, simultaneously bemoaning that more books like this aren't published.
My personal suspicion, though, is that the romance publishers are going to lag behind in this area, simply because, as has been pointed out in this thread, a lot of original slash stories break romance conventions. (Some of them, for example, aren't primarily about love.) And, of course, many of them break GLBT fiction/erotica conventions. (Not enough detailed body descriptions, for example.) And there's just too much erotic content in some of them for them to pass the mainstream SF/F test - at least, if the author wants them to be published in a relatively unexpurgated manner. So which publishers will provide the breakthrough I'm just not sure about. I do think that, sooner or later, the professional breakthrough will have to happen; this subgenre has been gaining readers by leaps and bounds during the past decade.
"If you think about it, sf/f, mystery, historicals, etc., are not genres in which the genre conventions are about the characters and their interactions."
Indeed, but it's surprising how often those conventions are broken.
I'm a fan of friendship fiction, and, unless I'm in the juvenile section of the library, I have to read between the lines of blurbs to find the genre books that will interest me. (I'm somewhat puzzled why it's assumed by publishers that children will be interested in genre friendship fiction but that adults won't be.) However, I have dozens of fantasy books on my shelves in which friendship plays a central role in the story. And I don't think my taste as a fantasy reader is that far off the mark from mainstream; otherwise, I wouldn't be able to go through lists of best fantasy books and find most of those books on my shelves.
Given fan fiction writers' tendency to zero in on relationships (all relationships, not just romantic ones), I rather suspect that there's more interest by SF/F readers in character relationships than blurb writers usually assume. Certainly the rise of paranormal romance suggests that there are a goodly number of readers out there who like both SF/F and relationships. Not all SF/F readers, of course, but perhaps a sizeable enough minority that, like those fat fantasy novel fans, they could be worth a publisher's time to target?
But that's a matter, really, for the publicity department rather than the editorial department. I used to work in publishing, and I know how many books live or die by how they're publicized.
This has turned into feedback rather than the thank-you note it was intended to be. That's a credit to the manner in which your post raises interesting questions.
Did they? I'm sorry that was your impression, for I thought the audience was on the edge of their seats listening to you folks. I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't annoyed by your answers; I was interested in what you had to say on the topic. And deeply grateful that you'd take the time to talk with us.
"It's entirely possible that someone will figure out how to sell 'Category Romance With Excitingly Downbeat Endings!' as a hot new genre or subgenre, but the hitch is: this trick is REALLY, REALLY HARD."
And there, I think, is the point of agreement between you and the audience members that were pressing you on this topic (which includes me): We all agree that it's really, really hard to establish a new professional subgenre. It must have been hell for the editors who first had to struggle with the problem of how to market paranormal romances. I'd love to know how they managed that trick.
I think that there are enough people looking in the right direction at gay love stories at the moment - the figures for the number of slash and yaoi stories on the Web are quite startling. The trouble is, these readers are mainly looking in the direction of fan fiction. I suspect there's a chicken-and-the-egg problem here - are they looking in the direction of fan fiction because that's what they want or because they can't find professionally published gay love stories? I do know that, over and over and over, I've had the experience of slashers dragging me into bookstores - literally or through cyberspace recommendations - and telling me what their favorite pro books are, simultaneously bemoaning that more books like this aren't published.
My personal suspicion, though, is that the romance publishers are going to lag behind in this area, simply because, as has been pointed out in this thread, a lot of original slash stories break romance conventions. (Some of them, for example, aren't primarily about love.) And, of course, many of them break GLBT fiction/erotica conventions. (Not enough detailed body descriptions, for example.) And there's just too much erotic content in some of them for them to pass the mainstream SF/F test - at least, if the author wants them to be published in a relatively unexpurgated manner. So which publishers will provide the breakthrough I'm just not sure about. I do think that, sooner or later, the professional breakthrough will have to happen; this subgenre has been gaining readers by leaps and bounds during the past decade.
"If you think about it, sf/f, mystery, historicals, etc., are not genres in which the genre conventions are about the characters and their interactions."
Indeed, but it's surprising how often those conventions are broken.
I'm a fan of friendship fiction, and, unless I'm in the juvenile section of the library, I have to read between the lines of blurbs to find the genre books that will interest me. (I'm somewhat puzzled why it's assumed by publishers that children will be interested in genre friendship fiction but that adults won't be.) However, I have dozens of fantasy books on my shelves in which friendship plays a central role in the story. And I don't think my taste as a fantasy reader is that far off the mark from mainstream; otherwise, I wouldn't be able to go through lists of best fantasy books and find most of those books on my shelves.
Given fan fiction writers' tendency to zero in on relationships (all relationships, not just romantic ones), I rather suspect that there's more interest by SF/F readers in character relationships than blurb writers usually assume. Certainly the rise of paranormal romance suggests that there are a goodly number of readers out there who like both SF/F and relationships. Not all SF/F readers, of course, but perhaps a sizeable enough minority that, like those fat fantasy novel fans, they could be worth a publisher's time to target?
But that's a matter, really, for the publicity department rather than the editorial department. I used to work in publishing, and I know how many books live or die by how they're publicized.
This has turned into feedback rather than the thank-you note it was intended to be. That's a credit to the manner in which your post raises interesting questions.
That's not really the reason, though. The Scott and Scott romances are written by men for men and the characters are not especially realistic.
I've been pondering why there are these different ways of writing romantic stories about gay men, with these very defined conventions and audiences, and all I can get is a thisness about it. But there are:
-- archived amateur gay coming-of-age romances whose creators and audience appears to be mostly very young gay men (I think formerly these were mostly less young than they are now), with a liberal sprinkling of very young women and another group of women of a matronly age, mostly not involving any money changing hands besides donations to support the archives:
-- fanfiction and fiction in a fanfiction mode, formerly amateur but developing a professional character, largely written and read by women, with a sprinkling of men, mostly published as e-fiction:
-- print romances largely lighthearted and I think mostly written and read by men, distributed in the usual book channels:
And I forget, but there was something else. Oh, yes: YA novels most of which are also "problem" novels. I don't know but I think these are mostly read by very young women.
So there's sort of something for everybody who wants to read about men loving men. And you could go off on another tangent about what all these different kinds of people are getting out of these stories.
But notice that some of these genres are less lucrative than others.
I've been pondering why there are these different ways of writing romantic stories about gay men, with these very defined conventions and audiences, and all I can get is a thisness about it. But there are:
-- archived amateur gay coming-of-age romances whose creators and audience appears to be mostly very young gay men (I think formerly these were mostly less young than they are now), with a liberal sprinkling of very young women and another group of women of a matronly age, mostly not involving any money changing hands besides donations to support the archives:
-- fanfiction and fiction in a fanfiction mode, formerly amateur but developing a professional character, largely written and read by women, with a sprinkling of men, mostly published as e-fiction:
-- print romances largely lighthearted and I think mostly written and read by men, distributed in the usual book channels:
And I forget, but there was something else. Oh, yes: YA novels most of which are also "problem" novels. I don't know but I think these are mostly read by very young women.
So there's sort of something for everybody who wants to read about men loving men. And you could go off on another tangent about what all these different kinds of people are getting out of these stories.
But notice that some of these genres are less lucrative than others.
I agree. After I read the essay, I was really excited.
I do know gay men (and have received fan mail from gay men) who read both slash fanfic and slash-a-like pro romance aimed at women because it gives them the emotional content they're not finding in the mainstream gay material aimed at gay men. They're a minority, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
All very reassuring -- thanks for posting. I'm getting ready to start querying an urban fantasy mystery in which the hero is bisexual, and my big worry was that the gay presses would be antsy that he has a brief relationship with a woman early on while the rest would be bothered by his relationship with a younger man later in the story. But I think if I focus on the mystery and the worldbuilding in the background, then the relationships (both of which tie into the puzzle) will just be a 'by the way...' in the query.
And if nothing else I love the world I've created, I'm still writing more mysteries in it, and my friends seem to like what they've seen too.
And if nothing else I love the world I've created, I'm still writing more mysteries in it, and my friends seem to like what they've seen too.
Woo hoo!
I was wondering how I'd pitch my story that's mostly romantic tragedy. Once upon a time romantic tragedy sold. Shakespeare, Hans Christian Andersen, etc.
Shame Romance nowadays must have an HEA.
So, instead of trying to pitch it as a paranormal romance, I can safely remain within the realm of fantasy with overtones of romantic tragedy a la Romeo & Juliet.
Now, I could change the ending to be an HEA, but I think that would be a cop-out and ruin the story. I want to keep the sense of bittersweet loss.
Moral of the story: Build the tree of a solid genre with a big audience, but hang the ornaments of a subgenre with a minority audience on it. I just thought of another benefit to this--New and Different Approach value.
I was wondering how I'd pitch my story that's mostly romantic tragedy. Once upon a time romantic tragedy sold. Shakespeare, Hans Christian Andersen, etc.
Shame Romance nowadays must have an HEA.
So, instead of trying to pitch it as a paranormal romance, I can safely remain within the realm of fantasy with overtones of romantic tragedy a la Romeo & Juliet.
Now, I could change the ending to be an HEA, but I think that would be a cop-out and ruin the story. I want to keep the sense of bittersweet loss.
Moral of the story: Build the tree of a solid genre with a big audience, but hang the ornaments of a subgenre with a minority audience on it. I just thought of another benefit to this--New and Different Approach value.
The other problem is that most queer readers don't a) bother to read and b) also don't read outside their particular identity.
Gay writers don't read lesbian authors enough and vice versa, but both tend to complain when the "mainstream" won't pay attention to them, even though they're not paying attention to one another in their shared homosocial battle within publishing.
Gay writers don't read lesbian authors enough and vice versa, but both tend to complain when the "mainstream" won't pay attention to them, even though they're not paying attention to one another in their shared homosocial battle within publishing.
Kensington publishes a lot of gay romances.
Romentics only publishes gay romances.
Seventh Window publishes them, too. (They did the historical THE PRICE OF TEMPTATION, for instance, with a fun cover www.priceoftemptation.com.)
Gay Men's Press is no more, FWIW.
Romentics only publishes gay romances.
Seventh Window publishes them, too. (They did the historical THE PRICE OF TEMPTATION, for instance, with a fun cover www.priceoftemptation.com.)
Gay Men's Press is no more, FWIW.
The amount of sex in a book also has a lot to do with its acceptance in the mainstream, especially if written by a male author. Someone like Stephen McCauley, who has only published in the mainstream, writes books about men who by and large never have sex. (I published an excised sex scene from Paul Russell's THE COMING STORM in my anthology THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF GAY EROTICA from Carroll & Graf.)
There are exceptions, but they are usually imports from other markets, especially the UK, where class often comes into play: like Alan Hollinghurst's THE SWIMMING-POOL LIBRARY.
In general, it is easier for a book with gay-male content to be successfully published in the mainstream if it is written by a woman, in large part because a heterosexual male READER can thereby be seen reading the book without his own sexuality being called into question (as would happen if a purportedly-heterosexual male reader is seen reading a gay male novel written by a male--and thereby supposedly gay--author).
There are exceptions, but they are usually imports from other markets, especially the UK, where class often comes into play: like Alan Hollinghurst's THE SWIMMING-POOL LIBRARY.
In general, it is easier for a book with gay-male content to be successfully published in the mainstream if it is written by a woman, in large part because a heterosexual male READER can thereby be seen reading the book without his own sexuality being called into question (as would happen if a purportedly-heterosexual male reader is seen reading a gay male novel written by a male--and thereby supposedly gay--author).
Re: gay-male fiction in the mainstream
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
desayunoencama.livejournal.com
2006-06-22 10:14 am (UTC)(link)
Curiously, one place where mainstream publishers are having a tremendous amount of success with gay-male characters, themes, and authors is YA.
FWIW.
And these books are often crossing over to an adult readership, nostalgic about high school
FWIW.
And these books are often crossing over to an adult readership, nostalgic about high school
Well,Samuel Delaney is pretty darn popular. I'm with you-- write a really darn good book. That'sthe only pub hope for most of us, regardless of preference.
PS, I hope you've read "Will you be my POSSSLQ?" By Erma Bombeck. So much alphabet soup out there...
PS, I hope you've read "Will you be my POSSSLQ?" By Erma Bombeck. So much alphabet soup out there...
I don't think minorities are best served by creating specialist minority fiction. There's a time and place for 'gay fiction' but I'd much rather have interesting characters who are characters first, gay second. And in place of 'gay' insert 'black/asian/female/geeky/anything.'
I think you (and big publishers in general) are underestimating the market for this. Amazon keeps suggesting yaoi manga after yaoi manga to me. The manga publishers have clearly found it profitable to pick up and translate a bunch of yaoi and shounen ai stories, from bigger names like CLAMP to probably any sort of yaoi they could find that another company hadn't picked up.
I'm not surprised to hear YA is making strides in this, since that would seem to be one of the primary points of overlap with the manga audience. The other being sf/f.
I'm not a romance reader, but I can understand why the fans are pounding on the door waiting to be let in. These stories are primarily romance stories told by women for women. Why wouldn't they turn to the romance section to look for more?
The first big publisher to publish a line of m/m books by women for women is going to hear 'kaching!' Provided they've understood the market properly.
Me, I'm kind of rooting for one of the smaller publishers to become a player. They know where it's at and it's always fun to cheer for the underdog.
-Jellyn Andrews
I'm not surprised to hear YA is making strides in this, since that would seem to be one of the primary points of overlap with the manga audience. The other being sf/f.
I'm not a romance reader, but I can understand why the fans are pounding on the door waiting to be let in. These stories are primarily romance stories told by women for women. Why wouldn't they turn to the romance section to look for more?
The first big publisher to publish a line of m/m books by women for women is going to hear 'kaching!' Provided they've understood the market properly.
Me, I'm kind of rooting for one of the smaller publishers to become a player. They know where it's at and it's always fun to cheer for the underdog.
-Jellyn Andrews
Agreed.
Problem a) is especially troubling. I saw that at the recent Gaylaxicon. A science-fiction con with mostly media fans. ::shakes head in sorrow::
Problem a) is especially troubling. I saw that at the recent Gaylaxicon. A science-fiction con with mostly media fans. ::shakes head in sorrow::
I never said they don't exist. And I'm curious that they cannot find such elements in gay fiction (which is often very present in the better works). All I said is that I have polled and found the % to be very low. Even the publishers acknowledge their readers are women. I think the gay characters they present are not like any gay men I know.
I will say the Scott and Scott books made a brief foray into mainstream but the experiment apparently failed.
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