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Selling Books with GLBTQ Characters
Why can't you sell your "gay" book into the mainstream? Here are some thoughts on it.
Why can't you sell your "gay" book into the mainstream? Here are some thoughts on it.
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I don't even understand what this means. All I know about Scott and Scott's distribution is their books turn up in my regular bookstore, and they're shelved on the Gay Men's Fiction shelf.
A mainstream publisher released a version of Hot Sauce hoping to capitalize on the success of the series. The sales were very disappointing from what my editor friend told me. So they are back to self-publishing.
Stephen McCauley's characters have sex at least a couple of times in each book: but he doesn't linger with the sex act, he just makes one or two observations about it.
It's not about promoting the minority, it's about promoting the book. Niche fiction exists so that books can more easily find their market. How would you ever find the fantasy you want to read if there were no science fiction and fantasy shelves in the bookstore or library?
Gay Men's Press was bought by the Millivres Group, which has recently decided to stop publishing under any of their imprints (Diva Books, Milivres, Prowler Press, Zipper books, etc.)
I don't belive Hunt has published a book with them in some time.
Heretic Books also published at least one novel by Hunt in the mid 90s.
I don't belive Hunt has published a book with them in some time.
Heretic Books also published at least one novel by Hunt in the mid 90s.
I attended the RT convention in Daytona Beach last month. While there I was tracked down by a staff member of one of the NY publishing houses and questioned about my M/M erotic romances, specifially, A BIT OF ROUGH, a 2005 Passionate Plume Finalist for the RWA erotic chapter. This person loved M/M stories, understood their appeal to staright women and was actively seeking supporting facts and numbers to show her CEO that the next big market was going to be M/M erotic romances and that they should get on it. I call my novels Manlove. It bridges the space between gay fiction (written for men mostly by men) and slash (written mostly by ametuers-some very good, some not so good). Staright women can walk into a store and ask for a 'manlove' romance without feeling as uncomfortable as they might feel asking for gay fiction. It's all about preception and what people are at ease with. I think there will be a market for it in the near future in all genres. At least I hope so, became I LOVE writing it.
Laura Baumbach
http://www.laurabaumbach.com
Laura Baumbach
http://www.laurabaumbach.com
There will be a chariot race, too. :)
Not to mention some battles, intrigues, assassinations and the usual mayhem.
Not to mention some battles, intrigues, assassinations and the usual mayhem.
I write M/M erotic romances. I recieve fan mail from both gay men and straight women. My work is on the shelves at A Differnt Light, LA biggest gay book store, and avidly purchased by both genders on line from publishers, Amazon and B&N. I call what I write 'manlove' because it had more emotional romanctic elements than traditional gay fiction does, (I also write for gay online sites, I know the difference) and is focused on the male/male relationship as the main characters. The audience is out there in both the gay and romance markets.
I like bittersweet endings.
I my case, the romance can't end HEA in the historical context. Ciaran is a pagan tribal leader of the Eoghaidh Riata, no matter his Roman education; Julia a christian Roman patrician. She would never adapt to his life, his people would not accept her, and Ciaran would never give up his position as leader for a life in Rome or even Roman Britannia, not after he spent half of the book fighting to oust an ursurper. *sniff*
I my case, the romance can't end HEA in the historical context. Ciaran is a pagan tribal leader of the Eoghaidh Riata, no matter his Roman education; Julia a christian Roman patrician. She would never adapt to his life, his people would not accept her, and Ciaran would never give up his position as leader for a life in Rome or even Roman Britannia, not after he spent half of the book fighting to oust an ursurper. *sniff*
However, I have dozens of fantasy books on my shelves in which friendship plays a central role in the story.
Could you recommend some, please? Because I like some good friendship stories as well, preferably not YA angst, though. :)
Could you recommend some, please? Because I like some good friendship stories as well, preferably not YA angst, though. :)
Once again, you are doing an awesome service writing about this stuff and giving your perspective away for free.
*It is interesting how your basic discussion translates well into other mediums. I help run a local theater company. People keep wanting to do original works or obscure, post-modern plays... and they get fussy when companies are reluctant to produce their work. We put on Dangerous Liaisions instead... risky, company-mission-fulfilling, and something no one was willing to do... but obviously EMINENTLY marketable... the perfect storm. And we made fistfulls of cash (for a non-profit community theater company, $5k is fistfuls!) Writers should look for similar opportunities and remember that writing a great book and having people read it are two very seperate battles.
*I always thought "slash" referred to taking existing characters from other properties and having those characters have sex. (i.e. "Kirk/Spock Slash, Buffy/Willow Slash, Dr. Crusher/Counselor Troi") While this was the kind of thing I would have LOVED to find on the bookshelf when I was fifteen... I wouldn't pay $6.50 for the paperback today.
*It is interesting how your basic discussion translates well into other mediums. I help run a local theater company. People keep wanting to do original works or obscure, post-modern plays... and they get fussy when companies are reluctant to produce their work. We put on Dangerous Liaisions instead... risky, company-mission-fulfilling, and something no one was willing to do... but obviously EMINENTLY marketable... the perfect storm. And we made fistfulls of cash (for a non-profit community theater company, $5k is fistfuls!) Writers should look for similar opportunities and remember that writing a great book and having people read it are two very seperate battles.
*I always thought "slash" referred to taking existing characters from other properties and having those characters have sex. (i.e. "Kirk/Spock Slash, Buffy/Willow Slash, Dr. Crusher/Counselor Troi") While this was the kind of thing I would have LOVED to find on the bookshelf when I was fifteen... I wouldn't pay $6.50 for the paperback today.
I too am a little surprised that there isn't a bigger market for Gay Romance. I've been reading Yaoi scanslations for many years and the readership and number of titles translated seems to be growing exponentially. You can now find Yaoi/Shounen Ai with the other manga in bookstores (which has ALSO become grown huge over a few years). Of course Yaoi ranges from basically hetero (one of the pair looks like a girl and just *happens* to have male genitalia) to more sensitive, realistic portrayals.
I do notice, however, that a lot of the Yaoi readers are my age, late teens/early twenties, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Or how, as my age group and those yaoi readers get older, the market will change.
As an aside - I agree with some others, I need my HEA for romance. The whole reason I started reading romance was after one too many fantasy novels killed off the character I most emphathized with and left me in tears for days. Never mind the agony of a couple taking 6 books to decide they won't work out (while killing ogres or something).
I do notice, however, that a lot of the Yaoi readers are my age, late teens/early twenties, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Or how, as my age group and those yaoi readers get older, the market will change.
As an aside - I agree with some others, I need my HEA for romance. The whole reason I started reading romance was after one too many fantasy novels killed off the character I most emphathized with and left me in tears for days. Never mind the agony of a couple taking 6 books to decide they won't work out (while killing ogres or something).
Point them in Kensington's direction. It might be privately owned but last I heard it's still a "mainstream" house. Their website actually has a Gay/Lesbian section, if that's any indication of their support for the genre.
http://www.kensingtonbooks.com/kensington/catalog.cfm?dest=dir&linkid=103&linkon=section
http://www.kensingtonbooks.com/kensington/catalog.cfm?dest=dir&linkid=103&linkon=section
The only thing about Changeling is they have a very low word count cap which means they don't take anything longer than novellas. Great if that's what you write, not so great if you mostly write longer work.
True about the word count, although I rather like it, myself, because I make more $$/word on the shorter stories than I have on longer e-published works. The cutoff is about 28K, which isn't horribly low, but yeah, not novel-length. It's possible, too, to break up a novel-length work into pieces and publish them in serial form, if you're so inclined and that works for the piece, and then you've got a win-win.
I'm confused, tcastleb. Why limit yourself with a tag like "character-driven fantasy novels featuring alternative lifestyles"? Why not just call it a "fantasy novel?" Whether or not you feature alternative lifestyles (and I do in just about every book) doesn't matter. If you do it WELL, nobody will notice anything other than that you've made real, believable people. That's the point. Same with "character driven." It's limiting and invites negativity without giving the book, as a whole, a chance.
Look at the Mercedes Lackey "Herald Mage" series. It was written like 20 years ago and nobody cared one whit that Vanyel (sp?) was gay. He was a great character and that's all that mattered. But it would have been a more difficult sell for her if she'd described the character's lifestyle and not given the actual BOOK a chance to be read.
Does that make sense? :)
Look at the Mercedes Lackey "Herald Mage" series. It was written like 20 years ago and nobody cared one whit that Vanyel (sp?) was gay. He was a great character and that's all that mattered. But it would have been a more difficult sell for her if she'd described the character's lifestyle and not given the actual BOOK a chance to be read.
Does that make sense? :)
With the exception of Torquere, all of the romance publishers I know of aim their advertising at women, so it's not surprising that they don't pick up many male readers.
In general, I'd agree with you about the contemporary male characters in these stories acting differently from the way most contemporary men act, but it depends very much on which author you read. I once had a lengthy discussion with a bisexual guy who was absolutely convinced that a gay romance author we both liked was male. The author was writing under a gender-neutral pen name, so there was no way to tell. We eventually found out that the author was female. "This is weird!" my friend said. "She writes about men as if she was inside our heads."
Another gay romance author I know of is routinely referred to by male pronouns in online reviews because her male characters are so masculine. Again, she writes under a gender-neutral pen name, so there's no way to tell.
A third author I know of, who used to post gay stories at erotica newsgroups, told me that she often received letters from male readers who assumed she was male. Gender-neutral pen name, once again.
On the other hand, I've been fooled the other way round. I've encountered authors in the slash world whom I assumed - from their characteristically slashy style - were female and discovered they weren't.
Have you read Jim Merrett's Advocate essay on this topic, which was reprinted in Flesh and the Word 2? In the essay, he (somewhat naively) expresses astonishment upon learning that some of the authors whose stories he's been jacking off to were written by women. I believe there's a similar phenomenon in the heterosexual romance publishing world, in which male authors hide behind female pen names.
I know that you didn't deal in your post with the issue of the genders of the authors, but I think perceptions about authors often color how their works are received. I write under my nickname, which is gender-neutral. Half the correspondence I receive from readers assumes I'm male; half assumes I'm female. Surprise, surprise, the readers who assume I'm male have encountered me in the gay world, while the readers who assume I'm female have encountered me in the slash world. Both sets of readers, no doubt, are making assumptions about writers' gender styles in accordance with what gender they think I am. And no doubt someone out there right now is making assumptions about whether my gay male characters are authentic or not, based on whether they believe me to be a gay man.
So what we're seeing here, I think, is not a conflict between gay male reading matter versus female reading matter; as ritaxis suggested, it's a matter of stylistic conventions that govern particular genres. Slash adopts many of the conventions of fantasy literature, and that genre - I'm sure I don't have to tell you - is inclined to depict masculine modes of behavior that were popular in the past, rather than present-day modes of masculine behavior, even when the story has a contemporary setting. Gay erotica, on the other hand, is wedded to the present, which is why (I reluctantly say) gay erotic fiction authors tend not to do a very good job of taking into account historical gender behavior differences when they place stories in the past. Both genres have their strengths, and in both cases their weaknesses are all too clear to critics.
In general, I'd agree with you about the contemporary male characters in these stories acting differently from the way most contemporary men act, but it depends very much on which author you read. I once had a lengthy discussion with a bisexual guy who was absolutely convinced that a gay romance author we both liked was male. The author was writing under a gender-neutral pen name, so there was no way to tell. We eventually found out that the author was female. "This is weird!" my friend said. "She writes about men as if she was inside our heads."
Another gay romance author I know of is routinely referred to by male pronouns in online reviews because her male characters are so masculine. Again, she writes under a gender-neutral pen name, so there's no way to tell.
A third author I know of, who used to post gay stories at erotica newsgroups, told me that she often received letters from male readers who assumed she was male. Gender-neutral pen name, once again.
On the other hand, I've been fooled the other way round. I've encountered authors in the slash world whom I assumed - from their characteristically slashy style - were female and discovered they weren't.
Have you read Jim Merrett's Advocate essay on this topic, which was reprinted in Flesh and the Word 2? In the essay, he (somewhat naively) expresses astonishment upon learning that some of the authors whose stories he's been jacking off to were written by women. I believe there's a similar phenomenon in the heterosexual romance publishing world, in which male authors hide behind female pen names.
I know that you didn't deal in your post with the issue of the genders of the authors, but I think perceptions about authors often color how their works are received. I write under my nickname, which is gender-neutral. Half the correspondence I receive from readers assumes I'm male; half assumes I'm female. Surprise, surprise, the readers who assume I'm male have encountered me in the gay world, while the readers who assume I'm female have encountered me in the slash world. Both sets of readers, no doubt, are making assumptions about writers' gender styles in accordance with what gender they think I am. And no doubt someone out there right now is making assumptions about whether my gay male characters are authentic or not, based on whether they believe me to be a gay man.
So what we're seeing here, I think, is not a conflict between gay male reading matter versus female reading matter; as ritaxis suggested, it's a matter of stylistic conventions that govern particular genres. Slash adopts many of the conventions of fantasy literature, and that genre - I'm sure I don't have to tell you - is inclined to depict masculine modes of behavior that were popular in the past, rather than present-day modes of masculine behavior, even when the story has a contemporary setting. Gay erotica, on the other hand, is wedded to the present, which is why (I reluctantly say) gay erotic fiction authors tend not to do a very good job of taking into account historical gender behavior differences when they place stories in the past. Both genres have their strengths, and in both cases their weaknesses are all too clear to critics.
Well, darn, and I just packed my books away in preparation for a move. However, I can simply refer you over to my historical fantasy recommendations list, because every single one of those titles has a central friendship in it.
http://duskpeterson.com/historicalfantasy/#recommended
I'd recommended starting with Guy Gavriel Kay's novels, and I also recommend the achingly bittersweet friendship between Morgon and Deth in Patricia A. McKillip's Riddle-Master trilogy. (McKillip qualifies as YA angst, since the trilogy was originally published for young adults, but it's am-I-going-to-be-murdered-today angst, not what-do-I-do-with-my-hair angst.)
If you haven't read these already, that is. Like I said before, my fantasy tastes are frighteningly mainstream.
http://duskpeterson.com/historicalfantasy/#recommended
I'd recommended starting with Guy Gavriel Kay's novels, and I also recommend the achingly bittersweet friendship between Morgon and Deth in Patricia A. McKillip's Riddle-Master trilogy. (McKillip qualifies as YA angst, since the trilogy was originally published for young adults, but it's am-I-going-to-be-murdered-today angst, not what-do-I-do-with-my-hair angst.)
If you haven't read these already, that is. Like I said before, my fantasy tastes are frighteningly mainstream.
The latest date I find is for The Honey and the Sting, 1999. I hope this isn't his last. I love Chris Hunt.
I've got a series of shorter works running at one publisher already, and the thought of breaking up a book like this is mind numbing to me when it's a proposed 5 book series. It would take a months to get a book into release one chapter at a time, much less 5 entire novels. And honestly, my readers would absolutely murder me if I serialize anything else.
Authors rule #1 in small press: Your readers are your lifesblood, keep them happy or be very unhappy when sales drop like a stone
For me 28k is very short since my average word count runs 75k to 100k. My plots tend to be a bit more complicated than boy meets boy, and I tend to bend genres. My last one, the 105k novel was mystery/suspense with paranormal and psychic elements, and it was about a Visual Kei band and took place entirely in Japan.
The research for that one was brutal.
Authors rule #1 in small press: Your readers are your lifesblood, keep them happy or be very unhappy when sales drop like a stone
For me 28k is very short since my average word count runs 75k to 100k. My plots tend to be a bit more complicated than boy meets boy, and I tend to bend genres. My last one, the 105k novel was mystery/suspense with paranormal and psychic elements, and it was about a Visual Kei band and took place entirely in Japan.
The research for that one was brutal.
"The characters don't act like any gay men I know" -- no, nor do the characters in Stephen McCauley's work, even though they strike me as dealing with some sorts of truth. Nor do the characters in Chris Hunt's books, which might be considered kind of slashy, though I think the term "slash" was just about being invented at the time of the first one or two. These stories are not about reflecting life, they're about drama, which has a strong, true, but really tangential relationship to life.
I wouldn't say that gay men's romance was lacking in emotional content, but I would say that the emotional content's general range, while overlapping a great deal, differs from that written for women. Again, I can't quite describe the difference. It's subtle.
Also, I think sometimes in this discussion we're comparing the wrong things. I don't think that comparing erotica written for men and romance written for women, or erotica written for women and romance written for men, is necessarily all that revealing. But if you took the whole lot of each and compared how erotica and romance interrelate in the two cases (written for men vs. written for women) you might see something interesting.
It's not that erotica and romance are deathly different, it's that their purpose, tone, and conventions are not identical.
I wouldn't say that gay men's romance was lacking in emotional content, but I would say that the emotional content's general range, while overlapping a great deal, differs from that written for women. Again, I can't quite describe the difference. It's subtle.
Also, I think sometimes in this discussion we're comparing the wrong things. I don't think that comparing erotica written for men and romance written for women, or erotica written for women and romance written for men, is necessarily all that revealing. But if you took the whole lot of each and compared how erotica and romance interrelate in the two cases (written for men vs. written for women) you might see something interesting.
It's not that erotica and romance are deathly different, it's that their purpose, tone, and conventions are not identical.
May I ask who is your publisher? Mainstream press? Gay press?
At the gay bookstore I worked at the books you refer to as Manlove do okay but most of the men prefer the WehoMan titles.
Yeah there is some success with YA, but most of the gay fic titles are pretty categorized as drama books as opposed to genre fic.
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