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Selling Books with GLBTQ Characters
Why can't you sell your "gay" book into the mainstream? Here are some thoughts on it.
Why can't you sell your "gay" book into the mainstream? Here are some thoughts on it.
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That may be true in a social sense, but in gay literature there are lots of bisexuals performing lots of different story roles, and not only the "betrayer" one (for one thing, bisexuals can be as monogamous in stories as in real life).
To get an idea of the variety of fiction available in a gay bookselling context, you could browse A Different Light (http://www.adlbooks.com/).
To get an idea of the variety of fiction available in a gay bookselling context, you could browse A Different Light (http://www.adlbooks.com/).
I know that this is a digression, but since it does seem to be in the background of several comments, and since I see far too many broken hearts over some of these issues, please pardon a brief word on the issue.
POD is a printing method. LOTS of publishers use it, usually to keep backlist in print, to produce ARCs, and other low-volume, low-overhead items.
There are a zillion permutations on the subsidy press/vanity press model. Some of them have arrogated the term POD publishing to themselves, thus annoying the tar out of the small trade pb houses that are using POD printing in the search to make tiny niches pay.
The subsidy presses using digital printing and offering low set-up costs now bring out tens of thousands of titles per year. The average sales per title are between 50 and 100 copies, including those sold to the authors themselves.
Some POD publishers leave writers confused about much of the following:
--Being listed by B&N, etc. is trivial, for anyone. Get an ISBN, record the release of the associated book, and it's done.
--Getting onto the store shelves is an ENTIRELY different game.
--ISBNs belong to the entity that buys them from Bowker. They cannot be resold. This matters in all kinds of ways (liability, returns, re-orders, marketing momentum, . . . .)
--The rights to the words in a book are a very different thing from the rights to the design. If you move your book to a different subsidy, self or traditional publishing option, you can't take the ISBN or the design with you, so you generally lose the momentum you have built.
I hope this starts some interesting thoughts in various folks' minds.
POD is a printing method. LOTS of publishers use it, usually to keep backlist in print, to produce ARCs, and other low-volume, low-overhead items.
There are a zillion permutations on the subsidy press/vanity press model. Some of them have arrogated the term POD publishing to themselves, thus annoying the tar out of the small trade pb houses that are using POD printing in the search to make tiny niches pay.
The subsidy presses using digital printing and offering low set-up costs now bring out tens of thousands of titles per year. The average sales per title are between 50 and 100 copies, including those sold to the authors themselves.
Some POD publishers leave writers confused about much of the following:
--Being listed by B&N, etc. is trivial, for anyone. Get an ISBN, record the release of the associated book, and it's done.
--Getting onto the store shelves is an ENTIRELY different game.
--ISBNs belong to the entity that buys them from Bowker. They cannot be resold. This matters in all kinds of ways (liability, returns, re-orders, marketing momentum, . . . .)
--The rights to the words in a book are a very different thing from the rights to the design. If you move your book to a different subsidy, self or traditional publishing option, you can't take the ISBN or the design with you, so you generally lose the momentum you have built.
I hope this starts some interesting thoughts in various folks' minds.
It's so *good* to see someone in the blogosphere carrying the banner of realism about publishing. I have to believe that you are helping to reduce the number of writers who break their hearts trying to will the world to be more as they would have it be.
I only wish you had the time to join some of the publishing listservs and perform some of the same reality checks over there.
I only wish you had the time to join some of the publishing listservs and perform some of the same reality checks over there.
Thank you.
I know the books of Guy Gavriel Kay, GRR Martin and some others on the list, and it's Rosemary Sutcliff's 'fault' that I write historical fiction. :)
But there are also new titles to discover.
Friendship is a theme that plays a role in my NiPs as well.
I know the books of Guy Gavriel Kay, GRR Martin and some others on the list, and it's Rosemary Sutcliff's 'fault' that I write historical fiction. :)
But there are also new titles to discover.
Friendship is a theme that plays a role in my NiPs as well.
"It's not that erotica and romance are deathly different, it's that their purpose, tone, and conventions are not identical."
Well, the problem I was having in the previous post - and the reason I mixed apples with oranges - is that the romance versus erotica divide, which definitely exists in heterosexual fiction and GLBT fiction, doesn't exist in slash (IMHO). Except in a few extreme cases, I don't think there is any great difference in approach between G-rated slash, PG-13-rated slash, and NC-17-rated slash. That why it's hard to compare slash to non-erotica genres (such as romance or genre fiction) or to erotica genres.
I read a news article recently about the problems that librarians have in evaluating shonen ai books; the books will seem very kid-friendly (from an American point of view), and then bam, on the next page, the characters will be in bed together. Same problem with slash. Most PG slash fantasy novels read like mainstream fantasy novels. But god help you if you pore through the author's site to see what else they've written. You could find yourself reading a fetish tale - and with no discernable change in the author's style.
Well, the problem I was having in the previous post - and the reason I mixed apples with oranges - is that the romance versus erotica divide, which definitely exists in heterosexual fiction and GLBT fiction, doesn't exist in slash (IMHO). Except in a few extreme cases, I don't think there is any great difference in approach between G-rated slash, PG-13-rated slash, and NC-17-rated slash. That why it's hard to compare slash to non-erotica genres (such as romance or genre fiction) or to erotica genres.
I read a news article recently about the problems that librarians have in evaluating shonen ai books; the books will seem very kid-friendly (from an American point of view), and then bam, on the next page, the characters will be in bed together. Same problem with slash. Most PG slash fantasy novels read like mainstream fantasy novels. But god help you if you pore through the author's site to see what else they've written. You could find yourself reading a fetish tale - and with no discernable change in the author's style.
"Some women have been known to read me. I don't quite understand why."
*Blink, blink, blink.* You're getting published by Torquere and Cleis, and you don't understand why females are reading you?
Speaking of genre stereotypes (or the breaking thereof), I came back from Con-txt with a stack of two dozen Badboy volumes. Someone had placed them in the Swap room.
How did Gaylaxicon go this year, by the way?
*Blink, blink, blink.* You're getting published by Torquere and Cleis, and you don't understand why females are reading you?
Speaking of genre stereotypes (or the breaking thereof), I came back from Con-txt with a stack of two dozen Badboy volumes. Someone had placed them in the Swap room.
How did Gaylaxicon go this year, by the way?
Dusk, starting "One Size Fits All" two years ago: "By Jules Jones. Must be written by a guy."
Dusk, halfway through "One Size Fits All": "Don't know whether the author's a guy or a gal, but they must be a slasher."
Dusk, halfway through "One Size Fits All": "Don't know whether the author's a guy or a gal, but they must be a slasher."
"POD is a printing method."
You said what I was about to say, and it's not only the small presses that are using print on demand. My father tells me that Oxford University Press has reprinted one of his bibliographies through POD.
You said what I was about to say, and it's not only the small presses that are using print on demand. My father tells me that Oxford University Press has reprinted one of his bibliographies through POD.
While not wanting to turn this into a pimp fest, there are so many folks posting here whom I know from the Erotic Romance Writers Forum that I'll mention that as another major source of information on romance, erotic romance, and erotica, especially GLBT. One of the forum's founders is the editor of Forbidden Fruit, and much of the homopromo crowd hang out there as well.
Oh, and five of us were sitting in the front row at alg's talk at Con-txt. :)
http://veinglory.8.forumer.com/index.php
Some of the members of ERWF went on to organize this group:
Erotic Romance Writers International
http://www.erwintl.com/
If you prefer an e-mail list, Forbidden Fruit runs one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/slashandhack/
And this might be of help to you:
http://www.romancewiki.com/GLBT
And here's a place where there's a crossover between erotic romance writers and erotica writers, many of whom produce GLBT stories.
http://eroticauthorsassociation.com/
In all of the above places, authors can promote their work; you might also enjoy getting to know writers working in this field. I'm sure they'd enjoy getting to know you.
You're going to see the same names over and over at most of these groups, so I'd better emphasize: This is only a small portion of the GLBT romance crowd. There are plenty of other GLBT romance writers out there who just don't happen to be hanging out at these particular venues. However, I don't know of any other GLBT romance venues that are as active as these are.
Oh, and five of us were sitting in the front row at alg's talk at Con-txt. :)
http://veinglory.8.forumer.com/index.php
Some of the members of ERWF went on to organize this group:
Erotic Romance Writers International
http://www.erwintl.com/
If you prefer an e-mail list, Forbidden Fruit runs one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/slashandhack/
And this might be of help to you:
http://www.romancewiki.com/GLBT
And here's a place where there's a crossover between erotic romance writers and erotica writers, many of whom produce GLBT stories.
http://eroticauthorsassociation.com/
In all of the above places, authors can promote their work; you might also enjoy getting to know writers working in this field. I'm sure they'd enjoy getting to know you.
You're going to see the same names over and over at most of these groups, so I'd better emphasize: This is only a small portion of the GLBT romance crowd. There are plenty of other GLBT romance writers out there who just don't happen to be hanging out at these particular venues. However, I don't know of any other GLBT romance venues that are as active as these are.
"I always thought 'slash' referred to taking existing characters from other properties and having those characters have sex."
And purists still use the term only in that fashion. However, there are now so many original fiction writers (i.e. non-fan-fiction writers) who are publishing stories in the slash community that the term "original slash" is sometimes used to refer to their works. As somebody pointed out above, these same stories, if published elsewhere, magically become gay fiction.
And purists still use the term only in that fashion. However, there are now so many original fiction writers (i.e. non-fan-fiction writers) who are publishing stories in the slash community that the term "original slash" is sometimes used to refer to their works. As somebody pointed out above, these same stories, if published elsewhere, magically become gay fiction.
Very true. And they're not the only one by a very long shot. It's quite common in the tpb world.
But this isn't an issue with bad writing; it's an obstacle evolving from the readers' own perceptions of, and problems with, the issue. It's sort of like, hrm, writing a book about a teacher/student romance and trying to make him sympathetic -- there are readers who will simply never ever see this romance as a positive thing because for them, teacher/student is Out Of The Question. It's much the same way with bisexual; for a lot of the queer world, the question of bisexuality hits some major buttons.
That said, there are bisexual lead characters (first off the top of my head is Tanya Huff's Henry), but they're really quite rare. When a reader says, "it's not you, it's me," it doesn't change the fact that this boils down to "I'm not buying it nor reading it." I suppose dealing with that is a personal decision in return, on the part of the author.
That said, there are bisexual lead characters (first off the top of my head is Tanya Huff's Henry), but they're really quite rare. When a reader says, "it's not you, it's me," it doesn't change the fact that this boils down to "I'm not buying it nor reading it." I suppose dealing with that is a personal decision in return, on the part of the author.
I'm obviously hanging out with different people to you -- well, obviously, you and ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
mroctober are on a different continent to me -- I don't think the sexuality of the characters is going to be as much of a problem over here, so much as the fact that there's brief 'on page' sex with both genders (some of it in a historical context as the story deals with events from sixteen years before and how they affect the time period of the novel).
I did think seriously about whether the story could work with a straight protagonist, and it wouldn't, because there's not a big enough reason for his self-styled nemesis to get involved if they hadn't been lovers in the past. Equally the death he investigates would have less impact if the woman hadn't been the protagonist's supposed true love so I'm not making him gay. Nor am I copping out by ending the story with the idea that he'd been one or the other all along and that all his lovers of one gender had been just him trying to deny it.
Sorry, I thought I'd given up bisexual activism sometime in the 90's. Obviously not.
mroctober are on a different continent to me -- I don't think the sexuality of the characters is going to be as much of a problem over here, so much as the fact that there's brief 'on page' sex with both genders (some of it in a historical context as the story deals with events from sixteen years before and how they affect the time period of the novel).I did think seriously about whether the story could work with a straight protagonist, and it wouldn't, because there's not a big enough reason for his self-styled nemesis to get involved if they hadn't been lovers in the past. Equally the death he investigates would have less impact if the woman hadn't been the protagonist's supposed true love so I'm not making him gay. Nor am I copping out by ending the story with the idea that he'd been one or the other all along and that all his lovers of one gender had been just him trying to deny it.
Sorry, I thought I'd given up bisexual activism sometime in the 90's. Obviously not.
That may be true in a social sense, but in gay literature there are lots of bisexuals performing lots of different story roles, and not only the "betrayer" one (for one thing, bisexuals can be as monogamous in stories as in real life).
I'm not entirely sure that it's true in a social sense any more, at least not over here (or maybe on the rare times I go out I'm hanging around with a self-selecting bunch of folk who don't care about such things). As far as my hero goes he's serially monogamous in the same way most action-adventure/detective story types are -- at least until the end of the novel, when he's showing signs of settling down -- he just doesn't discriminate by gender when picking partners. Isn't there a theory that a detective has to have reached a certain age and gained a certain number of contacts for the classic PI type of adventure story? Exes are great for supplying mysteries to the non-agency type of detective.
And thanks for the link -- I'll check it out later, along with the nature notes I just spotted on your LJ.
I'm not entirely sure that it's true in a social sense any more, at least not over here (or maybe on the rare times I go out I'm hanging around with a self-selecting bunch of folk who don't care about such things). As far as my hero goes he's serially monogamous in the same way most action-adventure/detective story types are -- at least until the end of the novel, when he's showing signs of settling down -- he just doesn't discriminate by gender when picking partners. Isn't there a theory that a detective has to have reached a certain age and gained a certain number of contacts for the classic PI type of adventure story? Exes are great for supplying mysteries to the non-agency type of detective.
And thanks for the link -- I'll check it out later, along with the nature notes I just spotted on your LJ.
[snicker] And if I said that there wasn't another version of that story on my hard drive, would you believe me?
I was very surprised to find that erotic romance readers assumed I was a guy, because the default assumption in slash (at least in my fandom) is that a writer is female unless there is good reason to think otherwise.
I was very surprised to find that erotic romance readers assumed I was a guy, because the default assumption in slash (at least in my fandom) is that a writer is female unless there is good reason to think otherwise.
I used Amazon because I don't get to bookstores that often, and usually when I'm there, I'm there for something specific. When I browse, it's on Amazon or other online bookstores. Also, it's not clear when browsing in a bookstore what's shounen ai/yaoi and what isn't. At least not just by looking at spines. In the Amazon recommendations, it's often pretty clear.. they put (yaoi) after a lot of them and I'm shown covers, not spines.
It's the sheer quantity of different yaoi manga Amazon recommends that surprises me. A couple of years ago, you wouldn't have seen that. Manga translation has exploded and I'm glad to see a variety. It used to be all you'd get was shounen/boy's manga like Dragonball.
And to respond to the most recent post, I don't read manga because I like manga and graphic novels. I read them because I'm interested in the stories that are being told there. Stories I can't get anywhere else (except anime and some Japanese live action shows). I've also read a few modern Japanese novels in translation. They're a different animal from American/British/Canadian/Australian/other English novels, granted, but they're.. perhaps a step from manga towards English novels. I would absolutely love to see more Japanese novels translated, particularly any shounen ai/yaoi ones!
The Japanese language and culture interests me, but it's also just how many stories have GLBTQ characters. Some good, some bad, some main characters, some side, some comedic, and some tragic. They're relatively easy to find in manga and anime. They're a lot more difficult to find in English fiction.
-Jellyn Andrews
It's the sheer quantity of different yaoi manga Amazon recommends that surprises me. A couple of years ago, you wouldn't have seen that. Manga translation has exploded and I'm glad to see a variety. It used to be all you'd get was shounen/boy's manga like Dragonball.
And to respond to the most recent post, I don't read manga because I like manga and graphic novels. I read them because I'm interested in the stories that are being told there. Stories I can't get anywhere else (except anime and some Japanese live action shows). I've also read a few modern Japanese novels in translation. They're a different animal from American/British/Canadian/Australian/other English novels, granted, but they're.. perhaps a step from manga towards English novels. I would absolutely love to see more Japanese novels translated, particularly any shounen ai/yaoi ones!
The Japanese language and culture interests me, but it's also just how many stories have GLBTQ characters. Some good, some bad, some main characters, some side, some comedic, and some tragic. They're relatively easy to find in manga and anime. They're a lot more difficult to find in English fiction.
-Jellyn Andrews
Which ones? I belong to a number of them, but am always happy to join more of them to spread the word about the reality of publishing (naturally, directing them over here...heh) :)
Lucy, I worked at a gay bookstore and while I agree in some gay lit there are kinder renditions of bisexual characters, it is by no means common.
I call my novels Manlove.
Hmm ... echoes of the "Boys Love", shounen-ai, in the Manga part of the bookstore.
Hmm ... echoes of the "Boys Love", shounen-ai, in the Manga part of the bookstore.
'Boys Love' sounds too close to underage fic. I'm into changing the female buying public's perception of M/M erotic romances written for them. It enjoys a gay readership as well, and both should feel comfortable looking for it and asking for it.
There are bunches of good lists/discussion groups on publishing. Some of the larger are:
--Publish-L (www.publish-l.com): I don't participate in this one myself. It stays on topic and doesn't get too rambunctious, but has, I hear, lower levels of activity.
--Pub-Forum (www.pub-forum.net): A flame-prone, disgression-plagued watercooler for far flung publishers of modest or smaller size. Grab some popcorn and enjoy the fireworks on weekends. Somewhere around 500 members, and 700 posts/month. [Standard Disclosure: I was shanghaied into being a listmom here, so I'm biased.]
and the Yahoo Groups
--Self-Publishing: the largest and most active group of which I am aware. 2,500 members, not all self-publishers, but few making more than $500k per year in sales, about 1,000 posts/month. Rigorously moderated (I know, 'cause I'm one of the moderators) and on-topic, but the knowledge level runs from rank beginners through folks with decades under their belts.
--SmallPub-Civil: Smaller, less active off-shoot of Publish-L, via its child Pub-Forum.
--PODpublishers: Big, active, focused exclusively on niche houses using POD printing to reach tiny market segments.
--Ebook-Community: Big, active, focused on ebooks only. Wear a flak jacket if you question the canons, but interesting nonetheless.
--Publish-L (www.publish-l.com): I don't participate in this one myself. It stays on topic and doesn't get too rambunctious, but has, I hear, lower levels of activity.
--Pub-Forum (www.pub-forum.net): A flame-prone, disgression-plagued watercooler for far flung publishers of modest or smaller size. Grab some popcorn and enjoy the fireworks on weekends. Somewhere around 500 members, and 700 posts/month. [Standard Disclosure: I was shanghaied into being a listmom here, so I'm biased.]
and the Yahoo Groups
--Self-Publishing: the largest and most active group of which I am aware. 2,500 members, not all self-publishers, but few making more than $500k per year in sales, about 1,000 posts/month. Rigorously moderated (I know, 'cause I'm one of the moderators) and on-topic, but the knowledge level runs from rank beginners through folks with decades under their belts.
--SmallPub-Civil: Smaller, less active off-shoot of Publish-L, via its child Pub-Forum.
--PODpublishers: Big, active, focused exclusively on niche houses using POD printing to reach tiny market segments.
--Ebook-Community: Big, active, focused on ebooks only. Wear a flak jacket if you question the canons, but interesting nonetheless.
Hi--interesting discussion! I'm another woman who writes gay romance (in my case, historicals). Like Laura, I'm published by a small gay press, Seventh Window, in Rhode Island. The publisher is fine with me being a woman, but did ask (not insist) that I publish under my initials so as not to put off gay male readers who might have a prejudice against reading gay romance by women.
So far, my fan mail is slightly skewed towards women readers (about 60-40), but that might be in part because they're more likely to write letters. I think it surprised my publisher that there's a female market for gay romance, and with my second book maybe we'll do more to try to tap it.
Anyway, if anyone wants to check out my stuff, my web site is http://marlyspearson.com, and if you have any questions about my experience, feel free to ask.
--MJ Pearson (author, THE PRICE OF TEMPTATION, DISCREET YOUNG GENTLEMAN)
So far, my fan mail is slightly skewed towards women readers (about 60-40), but that might be in part because they're more likely to write letters. I think it surprised my publisher that there's a female market for gay romance, and with my second book maybe we'll do more to try to tap it.
Anyway, if anyone wants to check out my stuff, my web site is http://marlyspearson.com, and if you have any questions about my experience, feel free to ask.
--MJ Pearson (author, THE PRICE OF TEMPTATION, DISCREET YOUNG GENTLEMAN)
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