Genre

[alg]

Genre as a marketing category!
Publishers and editors do not think about genre the same way authors do. Here's an explanation.



... Now I write an ode to spinach:

spinach,
you
are green
and
i wish i had more
of you than
what I ate
(yum yum yum)
at five in the morning,
dawn
creeping
up
you are
(my sunshine and)
the perfect delivery method
for salt and
garlic.

Comments

Re: genre

[alg.livejournal.com]

This is true -- but, honestly, it's more true at Harlequin. It's also more true in romance. Most of the other genres are not like that at all. Particularly SF/F -- that's a genre that seems to really encourage risky behavior, narrative experimentation, etc.

[alg.livejournal.com]

I AM ALL FOR THIS PLAN.

Properly punctuated, of course.

Anna says, "Read this."

Anna says: READ THIS

Anna says, "Read this!"

Hmmmm.

So many options!

[rogue-poet.livejournal.com]

So, I read your post about genre as I am reviewing the draft of my last manuscript. I thought I had written a SF novel... but now I realize that it is actually a Romance with SF setting and flavor. At least now I'll be able to do a better job with the editing process knowing what kind of story I'm actually working with :)

Your posts should be required reading for _ALL_ writers. "Introduction to writing 101 - the ALG method"

Thanks again and again and again for your tireless effort at making all of us writers a little less ignorant and, dare I say it, a little more empathetic.

Peace

[alg.livejournal.com]

Empathy is good! Although I think we can all take it too far sometimes. :)

Before you hie yourself off to research the romance genre, ask yourself what the tone and sensibility of your book is! Romance is a genre that demands certain conventions, and if you don't hit those conventions, it will be a very hard sell to romance editors...

Re: genre

[torauthor.livejournal.com]

My only experience with pure SF was Star Trek and talk about restrictive...no risky behavoir allowed. I've written historical romance and have been asked to take out the history and worse alter it so the history was wrong. In Romantic suspense I've been asked to take out sexual tension, and focus more on the romance as well as less on the romance. And then there are those wonderful editors who actually get it--and let the writer--write. What a concept. :)

Re: genre

[alg.livejournal.com]

Hee.

Writing in ST is not actually like writing SF -- the creative process might be the same, but you're writing tie in work for hire, not an SF novel, so the process is different and they want something different from you.

and, yeah, we've talked about the romance genre and its restrictions! You seem to naturally gravitate toward genres that want you to conform to their narrow demands!

Re: genre

[(Anonymous)]

Perhaps, I need boundaries to rein in my normal inclinations. Seriously, most editors would not let their authors write a paranormal-romantic-futuristic suspense.

Re: genre

[alg.livejournal.com]

Maybe! You're pretty crazy.

On the other hand, I wouldn't let you do it if I didn't think you could make it work!

Re: Urban Fantasy//Dark Fantasy/Paranormal

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, that does make more sense. Thank you!

One more question. Say you write a fantasy with vampires, werewolves, faires etc., and want to eventually write more novels set in that world. Then for a different book, you want to write a paranormal romance. Does it become a problem to use the same world - same rules etc for your supernatural creatures - in a different genre?

[rogue-poet.livejournal.com]

I had originally, when writing the draft, been more interested in the science and technology. However, as I read it back again, I see that the strongest part of the story is the developing relationship between the two main characters.

I will have to do the research on the romance genre to see if I am closer to that genre and hitting those conventions than I am with the scifi. Fortunately I know quite a few romance writers so it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. And, not that I think about it, I was working with said authors when I wrote the draft. No wondering where that relationship stuff worked its way in. LOL

Here's to hoping that it will be a seller in both genres.

Peace

[alg.livejournal.com]

GOOD LUCK!!

[rogue-poet.livejournal.com]

THANKS! :)

Luck and timing and some talent are holy trinity of getting published... or so I am told by folks already published. I, alas, am still among the unwashed.

Time to roll up the sleeves and get my hands dirty.

Peace

Re: Urban Fantasy//Dark Fantasy/Paranormal

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Heh, oi, the fantasy subsections! When I finished my first novel, it was time to do the query, and so many examples have qualified genres: "multicultural romance," "urban fantasy," "bio-thriller mystery", and so on. That may be some part of where authors get confused (especially when new to it all), because we think, oh, we should clarify as much as possible. I had the full list: multicultural, queer, urban, fantasy, thriller.

There were two things I learned: one, if your summary/teaser can identify sub-genres--gay Japanese DEA agent, multicultural, queer, urban, check, check, check; has car chases, thriller, check--there's no need to identify any but the biggest: fantasy. Just slap the biggest on there and let the agent and/or editor whittle it down to proper categories. Identifying the rest is just treating the agent/editor like s/he's stupid: in case you MISSED the __ __ __ points in the teaser, I'm going to remind you: western urban SF thriller chick lit, damn it!

And the second thing I learned was that first novels pretty much, for the most part, suck. All the fancy adjectives and qualifiers don't mean jack if the story don't sing.

Re: genre

[torauthor.livejournal.com]

But see--with you--what matters most is if the book works. With many editors, the story working isn't enough--for them what's most important is that the story fits what they think a romance should be. And that can make a tough sell for some really good books. If i was starting out, I'd write a book that fit easily into a genre and then stamp it with my voice. Once I gained the editor's confidence, I'd take more risks.

Outline - Questions

[the-lady-m.livejournal.com]

(Taking Notes)

OK. You've got the main "gist" of the story set in a specific type of genre.

You give a multi (sub) classification of some genres (examples: romance/fantasy/paranormal or thriller/sci-fi, etc.)

How much harder is it to sell the multiple (sub) classification compared just making it one genre?

For example: (Publisher = Editor/Agent/Person in position of selling or marketing and buying.)

Publisher: You have a story for me?

Author: Sure do.

Publisher: What genre is it?

Author: Well glad you asked. It is a combination of Thriller/Fantasy/Romance/Science Fiction.

Publisher: Excuse me? Sounds too complicated.

Author: Well it's a story of a Dragon Egg that is teleported into the future where there is no magic. Yet, the Dragon that is born from the egg has magic. The Dragon befriends a human cop and helps the cop solve crimes (in the future) and the cop meets a lady... who the dragon uses a little bit of magic to make them fall in love.

Publisher: Wow, well that sounds like a great story - but I can only sell Romance novels. (*Insert any genre here*)

Author: Well it does fit that genre.

Publisher: Not really. It's a tad of all of those and I just don't think I can sell it because it doesn't fit one stereotype of any of them.

Author: But it's a great story?

Publisher: Yeah. I just don't have a place to put it though.



So Anna, what if the story really crosses all the boundaries equally?

Will the "Publisher" try to round peg it into a square hole to make it more marketable?

Or will they have the Author try to narrow it down to one specific genre in order to sell it?

I realize a lot of the industry is only driven by the top dollar... so does that mean genre is a big issue on top dollar sales to the customer - or is it a little more flexible than what I'm imagining?

Lady M

[bachsoprano.livejournal.com]

Hi!

Sure - I'd be interested in outside opinions too, so thanks for the idea! :) Post is underway...

[tcastleb.livejournal.com]

Like many others, I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write such an informative post. I'm still trying to figure out how to classify my own book; it's fantasy with a strong M/M romantic element, but the protagonist's internal/psychological struggles almost overshadow the romance. But I'm very much looking forward to your words of wisdom on the LBGTQ genre, since I'm looking for somewhere to market this.

[huntergal.livejournal.com]

Will the "Publisher" try to round peg it into a square hole to make it more marketable?

Well, that sort of depends, I think of how much of the roundness needs to be trimmed to fit. But remember that marketing is the key--where in the bookstore it's shelved will determine your readers. I've recently taught several classes on the romance subgenres (some of the most confusing), but I always try to tell students that in the real world of the bookstore, the subgenre is only important to the AUTHOR and to the PUBLISHER. The bookstore will shelve it in romance. Period. It's alphabetical. Sherrilyn Kenyon (paranormal) is next to Tori Carrington (contemporary/category) is next to Carla Neggers (romantic suspense). It doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter if Jim Butcher is "alternate reality" or "urban fantasy" or "paranormal". He's shelved in Science Fiction/Fantasy.

And THAT'S what's important to the aspiring writer. The publisher only has X number of lines available and you have to fit the book into one of them. So selecting the publisher becomes the product of what YOU call the book.

So, you call it: Thriller/Fantasy/Romance/Science Fiction

Let's trim that down a little. It has thrilling ELEMENTS. It has romance INSIDE. But you EITHER have a Fantasy OR Science Fiction. Not both. Fantasy requires world-building and magic. If you have both of those, such as LKH does, or Mercedes Lackey, there's your genre. Fantasy is a "master" genre that overcomes the rest. You either have a fantasy with romantic elements or a fantasy romance. Being shelved in romance requires that it have an HEA (Happily Ever After). Science fiction is kicked out because SCIENCE should be the key to the story, rather than magic. If I had this story, I'd either sell to a romance publisher and tell them it was a fantasy romance, or a fantasy publisher and tell them it has a thread of romance. JMHO, of course. Fortunately, Tor has lines for both... ;-)

I actually find selecting the genre really easy, now that I've been studying others on the shelf. :)

Re: Outline - Questions

[alg.livejournal.com]

Well it's a story of a Dragon Egg that is teleported into the future where there is no magic. Yet, the Dragon that is born from the egg has magic. The Dragon befriends a human cop and helps the cop solve crimes (in the future) and the cop meets a lady... who the dragon uses a little bit of magic to make them fall in love.

Okay, first, I would tell you that the story sounds like either Urban Fantasy or a paranormal romance to me, depending on its sensibilities.

But if it was being pitched to me, I wouldn't request it. Why not?

Because I would want to know the following:
1. What does the dragon/dragon egg have to do with anything? Why does the dragon care if the man falls in love?
2. What, exactly, is the point of the story?

I would bet good cash money that the author wouldn't be able to answer those questions. That synopsis is all over the place, and nothing in it follows from anything else. There's no bits of connective tissue.

Additionally, how is it a thriller?

Writers complicate and overthink things because they want to believe their books are unique. This is totally understandable, and not something that anyone is judging. But usually stuff is way less complicated than authors want to make it -- editors and agents can always boil it down.

The most common response to an editor or agent saying, "Your book is actually about X," is the author immediately saying, "No, it's not, you just don't understand!"

In that case, the author needs to (a) take a step back and learn some manners, and (b) rethink the way s/he is presenting the book. If an editor doesn't "understand" what the book is about well enough to judge its genre, based on the author's description, that is not a failure on the editor's part.

Does that make sense?

Re: Outline - Questions

[alg.livejournal.com]

Also, check out huntergal's comment to you -- she has some excellent points:
http://alg.livejournal.com/77377.html?thread=1226817#t1226817

[lavenderbard.livejournal.com]

Having spent over an hour composing a message asking about my own romance/comedy-of-manners/fantasy thingy. (Hey the party was looking fun, I wanted to join in!)
Having posted it here.
Having realized that I posted it with out spell-checking it (Oh! The horror!)
Having promptly deleted that message in chagrin, there not apparently being any way to edit it.
Having then remembered that alg would probably get an email notice containing said message anyway, that she might even try to reply, that she might then be frustrated and annoyed by the fact that the orginal no longer exists...

Um, oops...

Sorry!
I guess I'm more used to using web-boards than I am to lj comment threading.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you & I are writing for the same audience and/or on the same wavelength: I've been writing thriller-fantasies, set in the city, with a gay protagonist. I'm told the 'ghey card' (as it's been monikered by friends after one particularly obtuse critique) is not as much of an issue in fantasy, but it's still a question of how to market it, what agents to query, etc. I agree it'd be awesome to have more insight into the industry's take on LBGTQ genre/crossgenre--especially when it's not strictly fantasy (predominantly action) but has a strong dose of literary (where character development is the crux of the story).

[kate_nepveu]

I hope you like it! It's third-person, which isn't to some people's tastes in noir, just fyi.

[trixalicious.livejournal.com]

Yesterday a friend posted a link to these "demystifying publishing" posts and (even though I'm not a writer who's trying to get published), I'm completely fascinated. Thanks so much for taking the time to write up all of this info!

[ali-wildgoose.livejournal.com]

FYI, there didn't seem to be a feed for the Lady Snark's blog, so I made one myself this afternoon.

http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=miss_snark_feed

Perhaps useful, perhaps not ;}