Genre

[alg]

Genre as a marketing category!
Publishers and editors do not think about genre the same way authors do. Here's an explanation.



... Now I write an ode to spinach:

spinach,
you
are green
and
i wish i had more
of you than
what I ate
(yum yum yum)
at five in the morning,
dawn
creeping
up
you are
(my sunshine and)
the perfect delivery method
for salt and
garlic.

Comments

[itshardtosay.livejournal.com]

I need to go back and read this entry, but I wanted to leave a quick comment to say thank you. I have had a string of forgetting and putting Miss Snark's syndication on my friends list was one of them.

Checkmark! Gold Star! Yay, Anna!

p.s. in case you missed it, CKR 'caps in my journals.

[alg.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks. I've actually seen everything you've capped, by which I mean I've seen almost everything Callum has done *ever*. Hee.

[kate_nepveu]

When I read Point of Honour by Madeleine Robins, I am reading a mystery novel; others are reading a novel of alternate history about a woman P.I.

And you are all reading an absolutely kick-ass book. (With a kick-ass sequel that should not be read first, because it will spoil the first one!)

I keep trying to review it and flailing because I feel like I can't do it justice. Nevertheless: kick-ass novel that is *truly* Austen-meets-noir, with all the implications thereof there on the page.

[alg.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, yes, I know all about it! pnh edited the first one, and I edited the second. *cuddles madrobins* They really are terrific books -- I am so glad you enjoyed them!

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

You rule. Thank you for the extended effort at giving us all better perspective.

[alg.livejournal.com]

I'm only doing it so that I can see how many different ways you can come up with to tell me I'm awesome.

Hee.

No, really -- thanks! I know I say it over and over again, but it makes me really happy to know that I am helping people understand this stuff a little better.

Hunter's Moon

[(Anonymous)]

Let's use Hunter's Moon as an example. This is a book by Cathy Clamp and C. T. Adams. When it was sent to me by the agent, she did not say, "This is an SF novel" or "This is a shapeshifter novel" -- she said that this was a novel sent to her by another one of her clients who just happened to be Laurell K. Hamilton. Laurell had loved the book.

When I read it, I loved it too. It's the story of a man named Tony who is a Mafia assassin. He's been turned into a werewolf. He's lost track of the days. It's the full moon. There's a woman, there's a lot of money, and there's a lot of gunfire.


I have to disagree with you on this. I read "Hunter's Moon" and would only give it a C or average score. The main reason is that it was way too schizo for me. It's all over the place. First, it's about a woman who wants to be assasinated. Then, there's a romance. Then, the Mob gets involved. And oh yeah, the hero's a werewolf too. It's a mish-mash of everything.

I love books that mix genres (Jim Butcher's "Harry Dresden" series is a great example). But I thought "Hunter's Moon" was trying to be everything to everybody. One of the subplots needed to be taken out.

Re: Hunter's Moon

[alg.livejournal.com]

I did say that publishing is a subjective industry, didn't I?

This is a perfect example of that.

[bachsoprano.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much for this! The writing group I belong to has been having rather heated discussions regarding this very issue (although more in regards to critiquing outside of one's genre)...I've referred them here to read your post (I hope that's okay...) - insight from someone inside the business is invaluable for those of us on the outside (but wanting to get inside!).

Thanks again!

[alg.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested in hearing more about the debate re: critiquing outside one's genre. I have mixed feelings on the subject, and I'd love to know what other people are saying.

And also you are welcome!

[tharain.livejournal.com]

Thank you! =D Once again, sent to my Memories.

[alg.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! Thanks for reading. :)

[susanw.livejournal.com]

When I read Point of Honour by Madeleine Robins, I am reading a mystery novel; others are reading a novel of alternate history about a woman P.I.

I feel strange admitting this, since it's such a subtle, nebulous thing, but the friend who told me I should read Point of Honour just said, "It's a Regency mystery." So I wasn't expecting the alternate history element, and it threw me out of the story, because I'd been looking forward to a mystery set either in the author's best approximation of the actual historical period, or else the consensus frothy alterna-Regency many romances are set in. I need to go back and try it again, because I could tell it was well-written--it just wasn't what I was expecting to read.

Which I guess just goes to show genre is all about expectations--if I'd known going in that I was reading a genre-bender instead of a straightforward historical mystery, I'd have responded differently to the book. And that's probably a cautionary tale for an aspiring genre-bender like me (I'm somewhere on the border between historical romance, historical fiction, and the military historical).

[alg.livejournal.com]

Hee, I think you just replied to your own comment!

This is partially what I am talking about -- people like categories, and they like their expectations, and it is very difficult to snap out of expectations once they are there.

That makes it hard on writers, too -- harder, I think, than anyone usually thinks about. Take Nora Roberts: her fans want the same thing over and over again, and buy her books because they know what they are going to get... and yet then they complain to each other that she's become predictable. How unfair to her!

[stevenagy.livejournal.com]

And when
you stick
in my teeth
on March 17
all I need
is a drink

Nice post again.
Happy St. Patrick's Day. :-)

[alg.livejournal.com]

we prefer
"publishing traditionalists"
to
al
co
hol
ics

...hee. Happy SPD yourself!

[deviantauthor.livejournal.com]

You're much more entertaining to read than Miss Snark, painkillers, spinach and time of day or such things not affecting your posts. *g*

So when is The Robot Cheerleader Wars by Samantha Carter coming out?

*runs away to hide*

[alg.livejournal.com]

Hey. No dissing Miss Snark in my comments. I find her extremely entertaining, and I find myself bordering on tedious. *g* And yet we are in the same genre! Oh, the woe of the industry.


*steadfastly ignores your question about Samantha Carter*

Thank you again!

[aberrantvirtue.livejournal.com]

Genre is one of those things where I feel like I should understand it, but then I look at my stories and I just get confused. (I don't have a snowflake problem so much as I'm just bad at taxonomy.)

This was pretty enlightening, and I already feel like I have a better grasp.

Re: Thank you again!

[alg.livejournal.com]

Hey, a better grasp is great!

Half the time, editors go into meetings and say, "This is a mystery," and someone in sales will say, "Let's put 'novel' on the spine and sell it as a mystery to B&N but as fiction to WalMart" and someone in marketing will say "Oh, and let's sell it as 'women's fiction' to Target! Good idea!" and the editors just sip their coffee and are happy that people are buying the books at all.

[susanwrites.livejournal.com]

I think you're a must-read too! Thanks for saying so much that needs saying.

[alg.livejournal.com]

Well thanks! I'm glad you find it all helpful. :)

[elvesforeyes.livejournal.com]

Very informative. Very spinachee. Yessums, mmm.

Genre is always an interesting study. I enjoyed the fact that China Mieville referred to his writing as "new weird". I'd love to see a section called that in a bookstore!

[alg.livejournal.com]

My favorite part of "new weird" is that China has declared that it is already "over".

I think too much sub-categorizing just gives readers a headache, frankly. I'd love to see a section in a bookstore called "Anna Says Read This". :)

confusing

[jodi-davis.livejournal.com]

I wrote a hard sci-fi. When I sent it to my little circle - I kept being told it was very romantic and oh, la, la... sexy.

So I pitch it as a SF Romance now (which everyone is interested in - so yeah!), but I still always think of it as hard sci-fi, I almost feel like I'm perpetrating a fraud.

I keep wondering if SF readers will be more tolerant of the sex (yeah, romance, whatever...) or if Romance readers will be more tolerant of the science...

Would you ever *leave out* genre info, (in talking about a book) just because you think it will confuse the issue?

Thanks!

JD

PS - Spinach, yum...

Re: confusing

[alg.livejournal.com]

Once the book is being sold to B&N, etc., we can't leave out the genre info. In fact, before we buy the book, we have to decide what the genre is, because we need to put it on the schedule, and our schedule gets sorted by SF, Fantasy, Mystery, Romance, etc.

There are three questions you need answers to:

1. Did you really write a hard SF novel?

2. Who are the people telling you that it is romantic? Are they romance readers, or SF readers? Do you know any hard SF readers who are willing to read your book and tell you what they think?

3. Do you care? If you send your hard SF novel to an editor who wants to shelve it in romance, and everyone who reads it thinks it's a romance, and the editor is convinced it will do well as a romance... do you *really* care that it is not shelved in the SF section?

Urban Fantasy//Dark Fantasy/Paranormal

[jennlt.livejournal.com]

I am confused by what to call this genre. I often see books by LKH, Kim Harrison, Kelley Armstrong called Urban Fantasy. Sometimes I see them called Contemporary Fantasy or Dark Fantasy. I also frequently see Paranormal. Sometimes they are put in the SF/F section, sometimes in the general fiction, and sometimes in the horror section at the bookstore. What genre do these books fall under?

Re: Urban Fantasy//Dark Fantasy/Paranormal

[alg.livejournal.com]

These are fantasy novels. Period. That is the genre. You will also hear "paranormal" or "supernatural" or "supernormal" -- those are not the official genre, but they are descriptors of elements within the novel.

Next you have the descriptors: contemporary, urban, dark. Other descriptors for fantasy novels include: historical, epic, high, quest, sword-and-sorcer.

Contemporary/urban fantasy is a pretty big subgenre -- fantasy novels set now, or close to now. John M. Ford, Terri Windling, Charles de Lint, Laurell Hamilton, Kelley Armstrong, Charlaine Harris, Jim Butcher... These are authors who incorporate fantastical elements (magic, vampires, fairies, etc.) into contemporary city-settings.

Where books are stocked in a bookstore isn't as black and white as I've made it seem -- for example, in some places, Laurell Hamilton is stocked in romance, because the bookstore manager knows that the majority of people buying LKH's books are romance readers, and that makes it easier for the romance readers to find the books.

Does that make more sense?

[madrobins]

That is because publishing is a subjective business. It is a business of opinions. When I read Point of Honour by Madeleine Robins, I am reading a mystery novel; others are reading a novel of alternate history about a woman P.I.

I will say that when I turned the book in to pnh I did tell him, "I'm handing you a marketing nightmare." I think of the books as mysteries (actually, I think of them as Regency Noir, but that's not something you put on the spine of a book) and when I see them at Borders they shelve them in Romance. It's gotten good reviews among the Romance reviewers; SF and Fantasy readers seem to like them, and Booklist said that Point of Honour was one of the best historicals of the year. I say all this not to preen, but to point out that this stuff is very very fluid. I think the single hardest job for a book like this is cover design, as you have to send clues to a wide variety of readers to let them know that it's a book they'd be comfortable with.

[alg.livejournal.com]

I would love to put "regency noir" on the spine of Book #3.

Vincent is licking the screen -- I think he agrees!

You are the perfect example of a genre straddler who has done it really well; you don't give short shrift to any of the genres included. Sometimes it works!! :)

genre

[torauthor.livejournal.com]

Anna is so smart. :) However, it's also the author's job to know which genre you're writing. Otherwise, even if you do sell the book, too many readers will not be happy. Sales will not be happy, neither will marketing or publicity. And many editors aren't as open minded as Anna. They want to be able to take your book to marketing and sales and say, this book will sell because it's like Ms. New York Times best selling author's book--only sassier. Of course there are always exceptions--but it's hard enough to sell a book, why buck the odds?

Re: genre

[alg.livejournal.com]

This is true!

And 99% of the time, books really do slot pretty easily into one genre or another -- because, as Mad said above, genre is fluid, the borders aren't static.

That's why no matter what authors say about their books having no genre, the editor has to figure one out!

[devilwrites.livejournal.com]

Excellent post, and super bonus points for having SG-1 give the book quotes! :)

[alg.livejournal.com]

Samantha Carter, budding author, is the running joke in all the "demystifying publishing" posts I've made. Glad you enjoyed it. :)

[rogue-poet.livejournal.com]

So, I read your post about genre as I am reviewing the draft of my last manuscript. I thought I had written a SF novel... but now I realize that it is actually a Romance with SF setting and flavor. At least now I'll be able to do a better job with the editing process knowing what kind of story I'm actually working with :)

Your posts should be required reading for _ALL_ writers. "Introduction to writing 101 - the ALG method"

Thanks again and again and again for your tireless effort at making all of us writers a little less ignorant and, dare I say it, a little more empathetic.

Peace

[alg.livejournal.com]

Empathy is good! Although I think we can all take it too far sometimes. :)

Before you hie yourself off to research the romance genre, ask yourself what the tone and sensibility of your book is! Romance is a genre that demands certain conventions, and if you don't hit those conventions, it will be a very hard sell to romance editors...

Outline - Questions

[the-lady-m.livejournal.com]

(Taking Notes)

OK. You've got the main "gist" of the story set in a specific type of genre.

You give a multi (sub) classification of some genres (examples: romance/fantasy/paranormal or thriller/sci-fi, etc.)

How much harder is it to sell the multiple (sub) classification compared just making it one genre?

For example: (Publisher = Editor/Agent/Person in position of selling or marketing and buying.)

Publisher: You have a story for me?

Author: Sure do.

Publisher: What genre is it?

Author: Well glad you asked. It is a combination of Thriller/Fantasy/Romance/Science Fiction.

Publisher: Excuse me? Sounds too complicated.

Author: Well it's a story of a Dragon Egg that is teleported into the future where there is no magic. Yet, the Dragon that is born from the egg has magic. The Dragon befriends a human cop and helps the cop solve crimes (in the future) and the cop meets a lady... who the dragon uses a little bit of magic to make them fall in love.

Publisher: Wow, well that sounds like a great story - but I can only sell Romance novels. (*Insert any genre here*)

Author: Well it does fit that genre.

Publisher: Not really. It's a tad of all of those and I just don't think I can sell it because it doesn't fit one stereotype of any of them.

Author: But it's a great story?

Publisher: Yeah. I just don't have a place to put it though.



So Anna, what if the story really crosses all the boundaries equally?

Will the "Publisher" try to round peg it into a square hole to make it more marketable?

Or will they have the Author try to narrow it down to one specific genre in order to sell it?

I realize a lot of the industry is only driven by the top dollar... so does that mean genre is a big issue on top dollar sales to the customer - or is it a little more flexible than what I'm imagining?

Lady M

Re: Outline - Questions

[alg.livejournal.com]

Well it's a story of a Dragon Egg that is teleported into the future where there is no magic. Yet, the Dragon that is born from the egg has magic. The Dragon befriends a human cop and helps the cop solve crimes (in the future) and the cop meets a lady... who the dragon uses a little bit of magic to make them fall in love.

Okay, first, I would tell you that the story sounds like either Urban Fantasy or a paranormal romance to me, depending on its sensibilities.

But if it was being pitched to me, I wouldn't request it. Why not?

Because I would want to know the following:
1. What does the dragon/dragon egg have to do with anything? Why does the dragon care if the man falls in love?
2. What, exactly, is the point of the story?

I would bet good cash money that the author wouldn't be able to answer those questions. That synopsis is all over the place, and nothing in it follows from anything else. There's no bits of connective tissue.

Additionally, how is it a thriller?

Writers complicate and overthink things because they want to believe their books are unique. This is totally understandable, and not something that anyone is judging. But usually stuff is way less complicated than authors want to make it -- editors and agents can always boil it down.

The most common response to an editor or agent saying, "Your book is actually about X," is the author immediately saying, "No, it's not, you just don't understand!"

In that case, the author needs to (a) take a step back and learn some manners, and (b) rethink the way s/he is presenting the book. If an editor doesn't "understand" what the book is about well enough to judge its genre, based on the author's description, that is not a failure on the editor's part.

Does that make sense?

[tcastleb.livejournal.com]

Like many others, I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write such an informative post. I'm still trying to figure out how to classify my own book; it's fantasy with a strong M/M romantic element, but the protagonist's internal/psychological struggles almost overshadow the romance. But I'm very much looking forward to your words of wisdom on the LBGTQ genre, since I'm looking for somewhere to market this.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you & I are writing for the same audience and/or on the same wavelength: I've been writing thriller-fantasies, set in the city, with a gay protagonist. I'm told the 'ghey card' (as it's been monikered by friends after one particularly obtuse critique) is not as much of an issue in fantasy, but it's still a question of how to market it, what agents to query, etc. I agree it'd be awesome to have more insight into the industry's take on LBGTQ genre/crossgenre--especially when it's not strictly fantasy (predominantly action) but has a strong dose of literary (where character development is the crux of the story).

[huntergal.livejournal.com]

Will the "Publisher" try to round peg it into a square hole to make it more marketable?

Well, that sort of depends, I think of how much of the roundness needs to be trimmed to fit. But remember that marketing is the key--where in the bookstore it's shelved will determine your readers. I've recently taught several classes on the romance subgenres (some of the most confusing), but I always try to tell students that in the real world of the bookstore, the subgenre is only important to the AUTHOR and to the PUBLISHER. The bookstore will shelve it in romance. Period. It's alphabetical. Sherrilyn Kenyon (paranormal) is next to Tori Carrington (contemporary/category) is next to Carla Neggers (romantic suspense). It doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter if Jim Butcher is "alternate reality" or "urban fantasy" or "paranormal". He's shelved in Science Fiction/Fantasy.

And THAT'S what's important to the aspiring writer. The publisher only has X number of lines available and you have to fit the book into one of them. So selecting the publisher becomes the product of what YOU call the book.

So, you call it: Thriller/Fantasy/Romance/Science Fiction

Let's trim that down a little. It has thrilling ELEMENTS. It has romance INSIDE. But you EITHER have a Fantasy OR Science Fiction. Not both. Fantasy requires world-building and magic. If you have both of those, such as LKH does, or Mercedes Lackey, there's your genre. Fantasy is a "master" genre that overcomes the rest. You either have a fantasy with romantic elements or a fantasy romance. Being shelved in romance requires that it have an HEA (Happily Ever After). Science fiction is kicked out because SCIENCE should be the key to the story, rather than magic. If I had this story, I'd either sell to a romance publisher and tell them it was a fantasy romance, or a fantasy publisher and tell them it has a thread of romance. JMHO, of course. Fortunately, Tor has lines for both... ;-)

I actually find selecting the genre really easy, now that I've been studying others on the shelf. :)

[lavenderbard.livejournal.com]

Having spent over an hour composing a message asking about my own romance/comedy-of-manners/fantasy thingy. (Hey the party was looking fun, I wanted to join in!)
Having posted it here.
Having realized that I posted it with out spell-checking it (Oh! The horror!)
Having promptly deleted that message in chagrin, there not apparently being any way to edit it.
Having then remembered that alg would probably get an email notice containing said message anyway, that she might even try to reply, that she might then be frustrated and annoyed by the fact that the orginal no longer exists...

Um, oops...

Sorry!
I guess I'm more used to using web-boards than I am to lj comment threading.

[alg.livejournal.com]

Um, I don't often care that much about stuff like spellcheck in livejournal comments. People post in the heat of the moment! There is a flurry! Typos happen!

I did get an email notification, but I don't remember what your original post was. Something about regencys and how to pitch your particular fantasy of manners set in a made up world? If you want to bounce that off the people here, you should post again.

[trixalicious.livejournal.com]

Yesterday a friend posted a link to these "demystifying publishing" posts and (even though I'm not a writer who's trying to get published), I'm completely fascinated. Thanks so much for taking the time to write up all of this info!

[alg.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks! Happy to entertain the masses. :)

[ali-wildgoose.livejournal.com]

FYI, there didn't seem to be a feed for the Lady Snark's blog, so I made one myself this afternoon.

http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=miss_snark_feed

Perhaps useful, perhaps not ;}

[alg.livejournal.com]

The feed for Miss Snark that I sub to is here:
http://syndicated.livejournal.com/miss_snark/profile

Livejournal should have told you that when you tried to make a new one! Bad LJ, no cookie!

Me Again Marge... *ps don't use caption html - it whacks it outta shape*

[the-lady-m.livejournal.com]

***That was an entirely fake plot - to try to explain the "concept" that there might be elements of different genres, with my odd sense of humor. LMAO - I just wanted to point that out. I don't know if I'd be bold enough to post my own real plots queries in your blog. As methinks that would be utterly rude.***

(So Anna, I can't answer the why questions unless I want to get really silly. I will, if it'll make your teeth feel any better. I like folks to laugh. But if that won't work - Me passes You a bottle of percocets and a cup of coffee.)

But this Comment:

The most common response to an editor or agent saying, "Your book is actually about X," is the author immediately saying, "No, it's not, you just don't understand!"

In that case, the author needs to (a) take a step back and learn some manners, and (b) rethink the way s/he is presenting the book. If an editor doesn't "understand" what the book is about well enough to judge its genre, based on the author's description, that is not a failure on the editor's part.

Does that make sense?

OK - That makes sense.

Do editors and authors usually work well together? Or are there usually a lot of primadonnas on either side?

Do the agents work more as middleman between the author and editor - or does it depend entirely on the agent/editor relationship? Or is it usually editor/author only?

In my opinion an editor should be able to request whatever they want... They are the ones ordering the item. *Like ordering at a nice restaurant... You want what you want - not what the chef looks at you and decides that you want.* They are the ones who will make it or break it - and the writer is but the best chef presenting what they hope will be a very tasty morsel.

Immediately apologizes for asking the flurry of questions - goes back to corner and whimpers... :P

Huntergal - I thank you way much. Very way much. (Alaskan lingo). That was extremely helpful and it boiled it down easily to one thinkable line for me:

where in the bookstore it's shelved will determine your readers

Rock on!

You guys are very helpful and thank you for your patience with me. I'm a very curious person --- you know... the ADHD kid in the back of the class that always has her hand raised - with the big glasses and seriously off the wall questions, that probably only make sense to her... :P

Re: Me Again Marge... *ps don't use caption html - it whacks it outta shape*

[alg.livejournal.com]

I think the problem *is* that you made up a synopsis. Pick a real one and I think we'd have better luck.

Do editors and authors usually work well together? Or are there usually a lot of primadonnas on either side?

Do the agents work more as middleman between the author and editor - or does it depend entirely on the agent/editor relationship? Or is it usually editor/author only?

This all depends entirely on the people involved. Some agents are very hands-on. Some agents are very hands-off. Some agents don't need to involve themselves in the day to day editorial aspects of publishing. Others want to be CC'd on everything.

Some authors are prima donnas.

Most prima donna editors do not last long in the business.

It is rare for an author and editor who don't get along to work on more than one book together -- the author or author's agent will ask that the author's work be assigned to a different editor (or the editor will!).

In my opinion an editor should be able to request whatever they want...

That doesn't mean an author should give it to them!

I can't speak for other editors -- although I will do a post about this in a few weeks and maybe the editors who read this will contribute their thoughts -- but I try very hard to make sure that my relationships with my authors are balanced. Most of my authors write because they love it, because they have stories to tell -- and that means that my job as an editor, as I have said before, is to figure out what story they want to tell, what story they are telling, and how to make the two come together in a way that will engage a reader.